I'll go first...

Discussion in 'Meet & Greet' started by jeep, Jul 6, 2014.

  1. jeep

    jeep New Member

    Hello all,

    I'm JEEP. I'm an electrical engineer by education, a software engineer by profession, and I spend a lot of my hobby time with martial arts and gaming (mostly tabletop games). I'm excited to finally see a keyboard that is has most of what I want in a keyboard.

    I'm in the process of converting from QWERTY to Colemak. I had considered switching to a personal layout, but Colemak with some tweaks is going to work out well for me. I left mechanical keyboards behind a while ago when I needed to switch to a tented keyboard to help save my elbow some strain.

    I plan to devote some of my open source dev time to this project once there is something for me to do. I love the space where hardware and software meets and since leaving Intel a year ago, I haven't gotten enough of that.
  2. AcidFire

    AcidFire I Make Stuff Staff Member

    I'm glad we'll be able to get you back into mechanical boards, it sounds like you and I have had similar issues. Of course now I'm curious, you say the Axios has "most" of what you want, whats missing?
  3. jeep

    jeep New Member

    I'd like a pair of scroll wheels (ideally tilt wheels). One vertical and one horizontal. I'd like the tilt able to go a little steeper... but I'm not sure that is a big deal. I'm not sure how well the thumb cluster will fit my hand, so an adjustable thumb pad would be nice (but again, it may just be overdesign). And I think I prefer inverted-T arrow clusters, but I'm not sure. I haven't given this a chance, yet.
  4. AcidFire

    AcidFire I Make Stuff Staff Member

    The scroll wheels have been requested a few times, but I'm not sure what would be the best place for them. There's enough space as well for an inverted t arrow cluster, but I think that would end up being just a little too much of a reach, but there's nothing stopping it from being tested. What part of the thumb pad would you want to be adjustable that isn't already?
  5. davidaciko

    davidaciko New Member

    AcidFire, I suggested an idea for the arrow cluster in another thread here but I then changed my mind when I decided I'd personally be okay with the diamond shape, but if the "inverted 'T'" layout is still something many people are requesting, the perhaps my idea is worth considering after all:

    Basically, just use 1.5 height keys (is that the meaning of "1.5u"?) for the side arrows such that the bottoms of those keys align with the bottom of the lower key:

    Diamond: /* some people prefer the "inverted 'T'" */
      ┌─┐
    ┌─┤U├─┐
    │L├─┤R│
    └─┤D├─┘
      └─┘
    Inverted 'T': /* might be difficult to reach */
      ┌─┐
      │U│
    ┌─┼─┼─┐
    │L│D│R│
    └─┴─┴─┘
    Idea:
      ┌─┐
    ┌─┤U├─┐
    │ ├─┤ │
    │L│D│R│
    └─┴─┴─┘

    Then it acts like the "inverted 'T'" if you put your fingers at the bottoms of the L|R keys but it's still easy to reach like the "diamond" if you reach down from above.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2014
  6. jeep

    jeep New Member

    I guess, I'm not 100% sure what IS adjustable on the thumb, so I'll list all the things I would like, but please don't let these creep scope:
    1) Able to adjust it forward/back some (red)
    2) Ability to adjust it in/out some (yellow)
    3) Ability to adjust the tilt a lot (blue)
    4) Ability to "sink" the thumb (green) Ideally, the front and rear can have a different sink, to make it possible to add a front/back tilt.
    thumbadjustments.png
  7. jeep

    jeep New Member

    I should have saved a little bandwidth and done this on the same image. I'd trade any of these keys for a scroll wheel (in order of preference). I feel like the thumb options are most likely technically, since scroll wheels are fairly large. (And I might have been the other person who suggested scroll wheels on GH.)

    scrollwheelplacement.png
  8. davidaciko

    davidaciko New Member

    Scroll/Tilt Wheel:
    AcidFire
    , Maybe the tilt scroll wheel could be an add-on accessory that we could buy as a swap-out replacement for one of the tall keys in the thumb cluster? That way you don't have to worry about implementing such a complicated feature at launch but that it could be an upgrade instead.

    jeep, I think locations ① and ④ would each strain the wrist due to the left-right tilt motion at ④ and the up-down scroll motion at ① after already streatching so far in the respective directions to reach the wheel. Also, I think ④ would be a good place for a key such as tab or backspace. ② or ③ would be perfect for the tilt wheel IMHO, especially if we could choose between them as desired!

    Thumb Cluster Adjustments:
    ① Seems like it would be difficult to implement without reworking the entire thumb cluster, but perhaps there's a way.
    ② Seems like it could theoretically help with very small or very large hands.
    ③ It looks like the current design allows 135° adjustment (see below). Is this still correct?
    ④ I'm not sure what purpose a forward-back tilt would serve... What did you have in mind?

    From the geekhack.org thread:
    "Each side of the arms on the thumb cluster allow for 135 degrees of movement with no preset indentations (who am I to decide the right angle for you?). The f-row has a similar range of motion, but will most likely end up a bit more restricted in the final design to protect the FPC cable connecting it to the main case.

    The tenting I'm working on allows you to adjust up to an angle of 30 degrees, but I may end up expanding that."
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2014
  9. jackmills

    jackmills New Member

    Hi Jeep

    How are you getting along with Colemak? I am struggling a bit, especially because it slows me down a lot, so I switch between layouts, which is not helping me to learn. If I am using it, it does seem to keep me more on the home row.
  10. jeep

    jeep New Member

    I'm slowly converting to Colemak. I use QWERTY when I am coding and then I switch to Colemak for other things except time sensitive emails. So far, so slow. ;) I also spend 15 min/day in a typing tutor. I figure when I get this keyboard, I'll be making other typing adjustments, so I'll go all in Colemak when I get these.

    As for the locations for the scroll wheel: 1 could be awkward for a tilt wheel, but for a normal scroll wheel, I think it's perfect. The more I think about 2... it's where I use the scroll wheel on my Perfit Contour mouse. So I might be convinced that the thumb locations are the better option.

    When I'm home, I'll show what I was thinking with those adjustments. Again, I wouldn't want to hold up production for any of the adjustments.

    -JEEP
  11. AcidFire

    AcidFire I Make Stuff Staff Member

    Well the good news is that just about everything you've requested adjustment wise is already there, with the exception of the forward and back adjustment (red arrow). David is right, there is roughly 135° movement on either side of the joint so you can get some pretty funky angles going, and currently there is about 25-30mm travel moving the thumb in and out from the body (yellow arrow). These two combine to give you a fair amount of sink on the cluster as well (green arrow). Originally, I had a pair of arms connecting the thumb to the body, however one set became very difficult not only to install but also to lock down. It also required a different set of joints from the rest of the body (additional cost), and thus has been dropped for now.

    As for the scroll wheels, I'd like to try and do them as drop in replacements. If not, we can definitely do a version of the thumb cluster that would allow them to sit there (would be my preference for a position as well) and the good news is that the molder I'm currenly working with is capable of doing over molding, meaning easy production of comfortable wheels.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2014

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